Preamble

The House met at a Quarter past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

COMMERCIAL GAS BILL

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

SOUTH SUBURBAN GAS BILL

As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL [Lords.]

Read a Second time, and committed.

Oral Answers to Questions — ELECTRICITY INSTALLATION CHARGES (RURAL AREAS)

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Fuel and Power whether, in connection with the installation of electricity in farms and buildings in the rural areas, he will consider convening a meeting of the electricity undertaKinģs throughout the United Kinģdom with a view to abolishing the high charges for installation and the long term guarantees which are at present demanded by.many undertaKinģs.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Fuel and Power (Mr. Tom Smith): Electricity undertakers are under no statutory obligation to afford supplies to individual premises situated more than 5o yards from a distributing line. This point is one of the matters which is being taken into account in the general reorganisation of the industry now under consideration by His Majesty's Government.

Mr. De la Bère: Does my hon. Friend realise the very strong feeling that exists in rural areas because farms are not able to get a supply of electricity on account of the very heavy charge for installation? Will he make a very vigorous request that these undertaKinģs should do something in the matter, in view of this widespread feeling?

Mr. Smith: I can assure my hon. Friend that we are aware of the feeling, and that it is one of the matters which are being Laken into account.

Sir Herbert Williams: Is the Minister aware that, under the Electricity Act, 1882, his Department and the undertaKinģs concerned are not permitted to do what the hon. Member for Evesham (Mr. De la Bère) has asked?

Mr. Smith: I pointed that out in the reply which I gave.

Mr. Moelwyn Huģhes: In the considerations which are before the Department, will the Minister include the question of a regional organisation under national control, as the only method by which the country districts can get cheap electricity?

Mr. De la Bère: I shall have to rouse the "Daily Express" to another campaign of enlightenment.

Oral Answers to Questions — SEVERN BARRAGE SCHEME

Mr. James Griffiths: asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he will make a statement of the Government's intentions following upon consideration of the Report on the Severn Barrage.

Mr. Tom Smith: The report is primarily on the technical aspects of the scheme, but there are also many economic and other issues involved. In particular, the merits of the scheme depend largely, as the authors of the report make clear, on the view taken as to likelihood of a further substantial rise in the price of coal. My hon. Friend will realise that this aspect of the question needs very careful inquiry and an early decision on the barrage scheme is therefore not likely.

Oral Answers to Questions — COAL BY-PRODUCT INDUSTRIES

Mr. J. Griffiths: asked the Minister of Fuel and Power what plans are being


prepared by his Department for the development of coal by-product industries and, in particular, fuel from coal in the post-war period.

Mr. Tom Smith: My Department is worKinģ in close collaboration with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research in regard to the further development of processes for the extraction of oil from coal. Much progress has in fact taken place during the war. Byproducts from coal are already produced on a large scale by the carbonisation industries, and the production of coal tar oil, as a substitute for imported liquid fuel, has been expanded during the war from less than 100,000 tons to over 100,000 tons.

Mr. Griffiths: Has the Department prepared its own plan for national development in this matter?

Mr. Smith: I could not give my hon. Friend any assurance on the point at the moment.

Oral Answers to Questions — WOOD FUEL SUPPLY, ANGUS

Captain W. T. Shaw: asked the Minister of Fuel and Power if he is aware that the Regional Controller in Edinburgh, at a meeting with the Sub-committee of the Angus County Council in July 1944, when the seriousness of the coal situation was considered, suggested purchasing a maximum of 4,000 tons of wood to be sawn into blocks, and 981 tons were obtained to be used where authority for its disposal was received from London; that on 2nd February last, owing to the serious shortage of fuel, application was made to the Regional Controller in Edinburgh asKinģ for authority to sell hard wood fuel stocked by the county council and other applications have subsequently been made but, so far, the Regional Controller in Edinburgh has not replied; and if he will investigate this matter with a view to securing a more businesslike procedure in future.

Mr. Tom Smith: My right hon. and gallant Friend is maKinģ inquiries into this matter, and will communicate with my hon. and gallant Friend.

Mr. Tinker: Is the Minister aware that in the country, trees have been cut down and sites have been cleared of wood that many people could use?

Mr. Smith: I can assure my hon. Friend that we have this matter in mind. As a matter of fact, we have more than 100,000 tons in stock on the site he has in mind.

Mr. Thorne: Is there any possibility of supplying, say, one cwt. of wood to people who are only entitled to 5 cwt. of coal, to 'help them to eke it out?

Mr. Smith: That is a question of the locality where the wood may be. We are taKinģ all those possibilities into consideration.

Oral Answers to Questions — CANADIAN SERVICE MEN (AFFILIATION ORDERS)

Commander Sir Archibald Southby: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominions Affairs whether his attention has been called to cases where members of the Canadian Forces serving in this country, being the fathers of babies born to British girls to whom they were not married, have refused to accept airy liability in respect of the child; and whether, in view of the hardship and injustice thereby entailed, he will approach the Canadian Government with a view to maKinģ arrangements whereby in such cases where legal action has been taken and paternity proved, the legal liability shall be discharged by the Canadian citizen.

The Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs (Mr. Emrys-Evans): I understand that if an affiliation order is made by a court against a Canadian soldier the Canadian military authorities make such deductions as they deem appropriate from the pay of the soldier concerned for the benefit of the mother. Once, however, a soldier has been discharged, there is no way in which payment of the order can be enforced by the Canadian authorities. Civil proceedings could then be taken against the man in the courts of the appropriate Province in Canada.

Sir A. Southby: Does not the Minister appreciate the complete impossibility of any English girl taKinģ proceedings in a court in Canada? Will he not make representations to the Canadian Government that this is a liability which they should properly accept on behalf of their men fighting overseas?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: While fully appreciating the points raised by my hon. and gallant Friend, I must point out that this is a question which will require legislation both in this country and in Canada, and that until we have passed legislation here it will be difficult to take up the matter with the Canadian Government.

Sir Patrick Hannon: Is the Minister taKinģ any steps to put this matter right? Is it not very serious that these girls should be put in this position in this country? Has any proposal been made to the Canadian Government to adjust this difficulty?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: As I have pointed out, legislation would have to take place in this country in the first place, as well as in Canada.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Is it not possible for the Minister to regard this as a general issue, especially as girls cannot get any money in respect of babies born of American soldiers, let alone Canadian soldiers, and raise the problem with His Majesty's Government, so that representations can be made to the several Governments abroad involved in this connection?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: That point should be raised with the Home Secretary.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH COMMONWEALTH (RACIAL DISCRIMINATION)

Mr. Driberģ: asked the Under-Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he has considered the statement on the colour bar and racial discrimination issued by the Conference of Missionary Societies in Great Britain and Ireland and circulated to all hon. Members; and if he will endeavour to secure the observance of the principles therein outlined in Southern Rhodesia and in any other parts of His Majesty's Dominions in which current practice falls short of these principles.

Mr. Emrys-Evans: So far as self-governing territories are concerned, this is essentially a question of domestic jurisdiction. My Noble Friend is accordingly not in a position to take action in the sense suggested.

Mr. Driberģ: Cannot the hon. Gentleman's Noble Friend at any rate communicate with, and make representations to, the authorities concerned?

Mr. Emrys-Evans: No, Sir, it would be very undesirable, from every point of view, to interfere with the internal affairs of the Dominions.

Mr. Driberģ: Does the Minister endorse—

Mr. Emrys-Evans: I did not hear what the hon. Gentleman asked me.

Mr. Driberģ: I asked whether the Minister at least endorsed the sentiments contained in this noble document?

Sir Alfred Beit: Is it not the case that few, if any, of the signatories of this document have had recent experience in Southern Rhodesia and South Africa, and consequently are entirely ignorant of the more tolerant attitude which is growing up there?

Mr. Driberģ: Is not the hon. Member aware that that is quite misleading? Is it not the case that Dr. Broomfield, for one, has a close acquaintance with conditions in Africa?

Oral Answers to Questions — TRADE AND COMMERCE

Cooks' Aprons and Overalls (Coupons)

Mr. Cocks: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he will consider issuing extra coupons to cooks in private service for the purchase of aprons and overalls.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): No, Sir. I regret that I cannot see my way to adopt my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Mr. Cocks: Is not the Minister aware that when these employees have bought aprons and overalls and other necessary articles they have very few coupons left for shoes or anything else?

Mr. Dalton: I am quite sympathetic towards them, but I do not think that indoor domestic work can have a very high priority.

Government Factories (Lettinģ)

Mr. Ness Edwards: asked the President of the Board of Trade what are the terms on which Government-built factories have recently been let to private companies.

Mr. Dalton: As I have previously stated, the terms provide for a short-period rent based on 1939 value's, to be adjusted later in accordance with current market values.

Mr. Edwards: Do I understand from that answer that the new rents to be charged are roughly the same as those now charged to factory agency people?

Mr. Dalton: Very broadly, but some of them have been running for some time already. This is a question of fixing a new rent for a new lease, and in the beginning the Inland Revenue authority advised us what would be a fair rent, on the basis of the 1939 values. It may be adjusted up or down after a year or two, at the request of either party.

Briar Pipes

Rear-Admiral Beamish: asked the President of the Board of Trade the present position in regard to the importation and distribution of briar pipes, which are still unobtainable in Sussex; and to what extent clay or other pipes are being manufactured and distributed in this country.

Mr. Dalton: Only small quantities of briar pipes are now being imported, but negotiations are at present taKinģ place in Paris with the French authorities on this subject. The production of clay pipes in this country is now at the rate of about 2,000,000 a year and of hardwood pipes, about 1,000,000.

Rear-Admiral Beamish: Is it not possible for the Minister to do a little bit to encourage the smoKinģ of pipes of peace and other pipes?

Mr. Dalton: I am anxious to do all that I can. At the moment, we are getting some briar pipes from Malta, which are helping to fill the gap. There are difficulties with regard to supplies from France, due to transport, but we are pressing the matter forward. At this moment our commercial Minister in Paris is discussing it with the French authorities on the basis of a considerably increased consignment from France.

Mr. Oldfield: Is it not a fact that briar wood is being exported from this country to America?

Mr. Dalton: That is another question.

Mr. Gallher: Is it not a fact that a well-known public man last week exhibited a room full of pipes, and could the right hon. Gentleman not acquire some of those?

Colonel Sir George Courthope: May I suggest the use of cherry wood?

Mr. Dalton: We are scooping up any wood we can for this purpose, but it is not very easy to do so at the moment, because of shortage of labour and so on. I will follow up the suggestion made by the right hon. and gallant Member.

Requisitioned Factories, Lancashire (Releases)

Mr. Rostron Duckworth: asked the President of the Board of Trade whether he has any statistics showing the number and floor area of factories in Lancashire which are still requisitioned by his Department.

Mr. Dalton: About 23,500,000 sq. ft. in some 1,250 factories in Lancashire have been allocated by the Board of Trade to other Government Departments for war production and storage.

Mr. Duckworth: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that the earliest de-requisitioning of these factories will play a great part in contributing towards the required increase of so per cent. in our export trade? Could he assure me that at the earliest moment many of them will be de-requisitioned?

Mr. Dalton: Yes, Sir, certainly; I have no desire whatever for storage for its own sake—quite the contrary. I always receive with regret fresh demands from other Departments to provide further accommodation for storage. Nevertheless, it is my duty to meet those demands, and I have done my best to do so. At the same time we have already de-requisitioned in Lancashire, or are in course of de-requisitioning, 23 factories with a floor space of 340,000 square feet. That is only a beginning. I hope we shall be able to carry on doing so.

Mr. Harry Thorneycroft: Were the factories now being used for storage in Lancashire built for production?

Mr. Dalton: All factories were originally built for production, some old and some new.

Pit Boots (Permits)

Mr. Bowles: asked the President of the Board of Trade if he will give an assurance that he will make no change in his present policy regarding the issue of permits for pit boots.

Mr. Dalton: I have no intention of changing the present arrangements, which are designed to ensure the fairest distribution of available supplies.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY

Army Order 9.

Dr. Edith Summerskill: asked the Secretary of State for War whether Army Order 9 has now been withdrawn.

The Secretary of State for War (Sir James Griģģ): The new Army Order which will supersede the one referred to by the hon. Lady is now with the printer.

Dr. Summerskill: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us why this Order was not withdrawn previously, in view of the fact that I put down many weeks ago a Question concerning this Order, which relates to the treatment of sick men, and the right hon. Gentleman told me he would withdraw it? Yet, as late as last week, the provisions of this Order were still being observed.

Sir J. Griģģ: It is no use withdrawing it until there is something to put in its place, and that process is nearly completed.

Sir H. Williams: What is No. 9?

Postal Services, Burma

Mr. Cocks: asked the Secretary of State far War whether steps are being taken to improve the postal services to the troops in Burma.

Sir J. Griģģ: I was speaKinģ a few days ago to the Vice-Chief of the Imperial General Staff who had just returned from a visit to Burma. He mentioned that while he was with a unit actually engaged with the Japanese, mail arrived which had left England seven days before. I do not think it very likely that we shall be able to improve on this.

Mr. Cocks: That is probably an exceptional case. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that soldiers are still writing home to say that the mails from England are few and far between?

Sir J. Griģģ: I do not believe that is in the slightest degree true. I have abundant evidence, apart from that of the Vice-Chief of the Imperial General Staff, that mails are arriving in Burma seven days after posting in England.

Overseas Service (Home Leave)

Mr. T. J. Brooks: asked the Secretary of State for War if he will consider deducting from a soldier's term of service overseas, who does not get his leave home to this country, a period of three or four months, such as is now in operation in the R. A. F.

Sir J. Griģģ: I am informed that my hon. Friend is mistaken about the practice in the R.A.F. He suggests, in effect, that the periods of continuous overseas service which qualify for repatriation to this country should be reduced. In announcing the leave scheme on 17th November the Prime Minister made it clear that it was an addition to the repatriation scheme with which it would not interfere.

Mr. Brooks: If it takes from three or four months for these men to take leave in this country, what objection is there to doing what is suggested in this Question? Why should not a man who is not able to get his leave have some time deducted from his period of overseas service? I am informed that in the Royal Air Force a preference is given to the men.

Sir J. Griģģ: I am informed that the hon. Member's information is incorrect.

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Secretary of State for War if he is satisfied that his regulations upon which leave is given at home and abroad are being fairly and uniformly applied in all units; what is the maximum service abroad that has to be served before leave home is granted; and when it is hoped to reduce the overseas service before leave is granted.

Sir J. Griģģ: I have nothing at present to add to the many statements I have made on these subjects in the last months.

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Secretary of State for War when a certain battalion of a regiment, of which he has been informed, was sent abroad, when did they leave India and Burma; what leave have they had; and if it is intended to retain their services at home in view of their long service abroad.

Sir J. Griģģ: I assume my hon. Friend is referring to individual men of a battalion of the regiment whose name he has sent me, who were repatriated to this country after long continuous service


abroad. Without details of the men concerned, it is impossible to say when they left India. They should have had 28 days' leave on arrival, and they will be kept in this country for at least three months. They are then liable to be sent to the B.L.A.

Returned Overseas Officers (Temporary Rank)

Mr. W. J. Brown: asked the Secretary of State for War what percentage of officers holding a temporary rank, having returned to the United Kinģdom since 1st January, 1945, from overseas, on long service grounds, have held that rank for more than 6r days' after disembarkation.

Sir J. Griģģ: I regret that these figures are not readily available.

Mr. Brown: Can the Minister assure the House that he is not taKinģ advantage of the return of these men with temporary rank for good service overseas to downgrade them in rank on a large scale almost immediately they return to England?

Sir J. Griģģ: I can assure the hon. Member that I am not taKinģ advantage of anything. If the hon. Member has any specific instance, or any number of specific instances, in which he thinks the regulations work hardly, perhaps he will let me know, and I will look into them.

Mr. Brown: It is not a question of regulations worKinģ hardly, but the way the regulations are applied by the War Office. Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House he is not down-grading these men in large numbers immediately on their return to this country?

Sir J. Griģģ: I am quite clear that am not departing from the regulations.

Mr. Brown: But regulations cover a multitude of sins.

Arģentines

Sir Frank Sanderson: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the total number of Argentines fighting in the Army for Britain.

Sir J. Griģģ: I regret that this figure is not available.

Missing Personnel, Far East (Dependants' Allowances)

Major Mills: asked the Secretary of State far War for what period the allot-

ment and allowances now being paid to the dependants of officers and men still missing in the Far East will be continued.

Sir J. Griģģ: I will, with permission, make a statement after Questions.

Following is the statement:

When a soldier is reported missing the general rule is that missing allowances equivalent to the family or dependants' allowances, allotments of pay, whether qualifying, contributory or voluntary, and war service grants in issue are continued for 26 weeks from the date his relatives are informed he is missing, provided he continues to be recorded as missing. The period is related to the maximum time which experience shows is taken by enemy Governments in communicating the names of missing soldiers who may be prisoners of war in their hands. Missing allowances, broadly on similar lines, are issued in respect of missing officers.

At the end of the period a continuing allowance is normally payable, for so long as the officer or soldier remains missing. This allowance is the same in amount as the pension which would be payable if he were dead.

Owing to the extreme delays on the part of the Japanese authorities in notifying the names of prisoners of war in their detention, extensions of the above period have been approved from time to time in the absence of news of the Far East missing. Missing allowances were, however, terminated in May, 1943, in respect of men still recorded as missing at Hong Kong and continuing allowances substituted, because it had to be assumed that the majority of those still missing at Hong Kong were no longer alive.

The position of men missing in other parts of the Far East has recently been carefully reviewed in the light of all available evidence as to their fate. The records show that by far the greater number of those who became missing in the fighting in and around Malaya and the Netherlands East Indies in 1942, and Burma before 1st November, 1942, are now reported as prisoners, either as a result of official notification from- the Japanese or of communications received from the men themselves. The Government have, therefore, been forced to the conclusion that, in view of this position and of the lapse of time since the men were originally reported as missing, it is unhappily now


unlikely that any considerable number of those still missing will be found to be prisoners.

In these circumstances it has been decided that the allowances in issue in respect of those still missing from the campaigns mentioned should cease after 31st July next. For other ranks, allowances will cease at the end of the pay week which includes the 31st July; for officers they will cease with effect from 1st August, 1945. Continuing allowances will then, in accordance with the usual rules, be payable. This change does not mean that the death of the missing man has been presumed or that endeavours to obtain evidence of his fate will cease from that date. In each case where death is officially presumed, a separate communication is made to the next-of-kin. Provision has been made for special continuing allowances to be paid to those families who are necessarily detained in certain areas overseas where expenses are higher than in this country. As regards those missing from operations after 1st November, 1942, missing allowances have already been extended, but at present not beyond 31st July, 1945. These cases will be reviewed before that date. All these arrangements apply equally to Naval and Air Force missing.

Soldiers' German Wives

Major Conant: asked the Secretary of State for War whether British soldiers who have married Germans are permitted to bring their wives to this country while we are still at war with Germany.

Sir J. Griģģ: As my hon. and gallant Friend is aware fraternization between British soldiers and Germans has been forbidden by the Supreme Allied Commander and questions of marriage should not therefore arise. I have no official information about the one or two cases mentioned in the Press in which British prisoners of war are said to have married Germans.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Does the right hon. Gentleman really imagine that nature takes the slightest notice of these regulations?

Sir J. Griģģ: It may be that you cannot expel nature with a fork, but there may be other means of expelling it.

Officers' Pensions

Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Fox: asked the Secretary of State for War the maximum pension that can be granted to a lieutenant-colonel, full combatant, who was enlisted as an officer; and a lieutenant-colonel who was promoted from the ranks.

Sir J. Griģģ: In either case the maximum service retired pay rate is £543 a year, plus the 7½ per cent. payable on this rate during the currency of the Pensions Increase Warrant, 1944.

Camp, Bellahouston Park, Glasģow

Mr. Davidson: asked the Secretary of State for War (1) if he has considered the representations of the Parks Committee of the Glasģow Corporation regarding his Department's proposals affecting the major part of Bellahouston Park; and has he any statement to make;
(2) the expenditure involved in his Department's new proposals affecting Bellahouston Park, Glasģow; the exact nature of the new proposals; and what firms have undertaken the work.

Sir J. Griģģ: It has become necessary, for military reasons, to increase very considerably the accommodation of the temporary camp at present in Bellahouston Park. The extensions are estimated to cost about £250,000. It is intended to put up the huts on a part of the park which is level, and where there are no trees. The hillside will not be cut into, and the contours of the park will not be altered. I understand that a meeting is being held to-day to consider any representations which the Glasģow Corporation may wish to put forward.

Mr. Davidson: Will the right hon. Gentleman give very careful consideration to the proposals of the representatives of the Glasģow Corporation, in view of the fact that they definitely got a promise that this park would be restored to the people as early as possible, and that the taKinģ over of this park puts considerable difficulties in the way of the people getting recreation?

Sir J. Griģģ: I certainly will consider any representations put forward by the Glasģow Corporation, but perhaps my hon. Friend will allow me to say that I am maKinģ no promise on the matter until I have heard them.

Mr. Davidson: Will my right hon. Friend answer the last part of the Question —what firms have already contracted for this particular work?

Sir J. Griģģ: I will send my hon. Friend the information; I am sorry that I have not got it.

Mrs. Hardie: Will the right hon. Gentleman remember that Glasģow is a very congested city, with very few open spaces, and that it is a wicked thing to take away any of the open spaces that they have got?

Sir J. Griģģ: Yes, but this happens to be about the only place suitable for dealing with a large number of returned soldiers, on their release from the Forces.

Mr. Neil Maclean: Why has the right hon. Gentleman not replied to an express letter on this subject which I sent him a week ago? [An HON. MEMBER: "A week ago?"] Yes, but the right hon. Gentleman usually replies much earlier than that—I will give him credit for that. Is it not the case that there are other parks, adjoining this recreational park, which would be suitable; and is it not the case that he intends to take away this park for 10 to 12 years?

Sir J. Griģģ: I particularly stressed the fact that it was a temporary camp. Certainly I would be no party to occupying this site for 10 or 12 years. With regard to the letter, it related, I think, to a deputation from the Glasģow City Corporation.

Mr. Davidson: I beg to give notice that, in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I will raise the matter on the Adjournment.

Requisitioned Land, Sedbury

Mr. Price: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will reconsider his refusal to sell some land to the Lydney Rural District Council, in Kinģ Alfred Road, Sedbury, in the parish of Tidenham, Gloucestershire, for the purpose of a post-war housing scheme, in view of the fact that this is the most suitable site in the locality.

Sir J. Griģģ: I can understand that this rural district council is anxious to make its post-war plans. It is not yet certain, however, that the Army will not need

this land for its own purposes after the war, and it would be unwise for the Army to dispose of any of it now.

Home Guard Messenger (Uniform)

Mr. Bernard Taylor: asked the Secretary of State for War why Dennis Moore, 4, Caudwell Drive, Mansfield, who was a member of the 6th Battalion, Sherwood Foresters, Home Guard, from September, 1942, until the stand down, has had his uniform, greatcoat and boots demanded from him.

Sir J. Griģģ: Dennis Moore was enrolled as a messenger, and as such he should only have drawn two armbands, a greatcoat, and a steel helmet. When the Home Guard was stood down he was entitled to keep the greatcoat, and if it has been withdrawn it will be reissued. As far as my information goes, he was not entitled to have boots or a uniform, and if he had them he was not entitled to retain them.

Second Army (Emblem)

Viscount Castlereaģh: asked the Secretary of State for War if, following the precedent of the ist and 8th Armies, he will grant to the 2nd Army the right to wear the numeral 2 on their medal ribbon.

Sir J. Griģģ: I would refer my Noble Friend to a reply given by the Deputy Prime Minister on 13th March, in answer to a Question by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Penrith and Cockerrnouth (Lieut.-Colonel Dower), relating to campaign stars. It is clear that emblems and stars cannot be dealt with separately.

Kinģ Theebaw's Palace, Mandalay

Mr. Keeling: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement as to the circumstances in which Kinģ Theebaw's palace at Mandalay was destroyed.

Sir J. Griģģ: I have no special statement to make. The palace was in Fort Dufferin, where, as the hon. Member knows, the Japanese resisted strongly. It was built of wood, and the risk of its being destroyed was, naturally, great.

Judģe-Advocate General (Status)

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is yet in a position to


state the precise status of the Judģe-Advocate General; whether he is a military officer or a civil servant; what duties are imposed on him beyond those already indicated; and whether he receives any recompense for this additional work.

Sir J. Griģģ: This is a civilian appointment. The holder has Civil Service status, but is not a civil servant in the normal sense of the term. It has fallen to him in the course of the war to provide from his judicial staff, judģe-advocates to act at trials by military courts, as well as at trials by courts-martial, but his remuneration has not been increased by reason of any additional work resulting from this additional responsibility. Many officials in war-time have to undertake additional work arising only in war, without any alteration of their salaries.

Sir T. Moore: As the financial position of this official appears to be somewhat involved, does he get a pension?

Sir J. Griģģ: I am not sure; I would like notice of that question.

Sir Herbert Williams: What is the nature of a person who is not a civil servant but has a civil servant's status?

Sir J. Griģģ: That I admit is a little vague. I think it means that his conditions of service are those of a civil servant, but that he is not a civil servant in the ordinary sense of the term.

Oral Answers to Questions — LIBERATED BURMA (RELIEF SUPPLIES)

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: asked the Secretary of State for War if he will state the nature of the arrangements for the dsitribution to the civil population in liberated Burma of such supplies as can be made available.

Sir J. Griģģ: Relief supplies for the civil population in Burma are distributed by the military authorities in liberated areas. The limiting factor is not so much the availability of supplies as the long line of communications through difficult country over which they have to travel.

Mr. Nicholson: Does that apply to the whole of Burma? Are the military authorities responsible for supplies for the whole of Burma or only for the forward areas?

Sir J. Griģģ: At present the whole of Burma which has been liberated is in what is known as "the military period."

Mr. Nicholson: How soon will it become the responsibility of the civil authorities?

Sir J. Griģģ: I cannot possibly say how soon further large tracts of Burma will be liberated.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMAN PRISONERS OF WAR (RATIONS)

Sir Leonard Lyle: asked the Secretary of State for War by how much the weekly allowances of rationed commodities to German prisoners of war exceed those issued to British civilians.

Sir J. Griģģ: The rationed items included in the allowances of food to prisoners of war who are not in worKinģ parties approximate very closely to the basic civilian ration of those items which are the same as those drawn by most British officers and men who are not fed in mess and use ration cards. Prisoners in worKinģ parties receive rations at scales equivalent to those drawn by British troops in mess at home, and I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT the weekly quantities by which these rations exceed the quantities which a civilian may buy with his ration book.

Sir L. Lyle: While no one wishes to act harshly towards German prisoners of war, is it not rather absurd that they should get a bigger ration?

Sir J. Griģģ: The ordinary German prisoner does not get a bigger ration. Those whom we call upon to work do get a larger ration, and the question is whether you want work from them or whether you want to give them less rations.

Earl Winterton: Is not the position that His Majesty's Government, like other Allied Governments, are bound by the Hague Convention?

Sir J. Griģģ: Yes, Sir, that is so. We are applying the Geneva Convention rigidly. Whether the Germans are equally rigid in applying it is another matter.

Mr. Glens it Hall: Does the same scale apply to the Italians who have now, I take it, ceased to be prisoners of war and are co-belligerents?

Sir J. Griģģ: No, Sir, their status is still that of prisoners of war, but a large number of them are co-operating. I would like to have notice of the Question, so that I can give my hon. Friend the facts about their ration. I may give the hon. Member a categorical answer.

Sir William Davison: Is it a fact that German prisoners of war are receiving the full American Army ration, which is bigger than the British? Surely, something ought to be done in that matter.

Sir J. Griģģ: It is certainly not the case, as the hon. Member will see if he looks at my answer.

Several hon. Members: rose—

Mr. Speaker: I think we have had enough of this.

Following are the quantities—



Ounces


Meat, fresh or frozen (boneless)
*


Fats (margarine)
2½


Bacon
5


Cheese
3


Preserves
3


Sugar
6


*As civilians do not get a fixed quantity of neat a direct comparison is impossible.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH PRISONERS OF WAR

New Camps, Germany

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Secretary of State for War which prisoner-of-war camps have been moved by the Germans owing to the Russian advance; and if he can make known the address of the new camps to which British prisoners have been moved.

Sir J. Griģģ: I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT such information as we have about the movement of camps in Germany. Information about the whereabouts of individual prisoners can only be obtained from the German authorities, and, owing to the present situation, it is likely that there will be great delays. In sending letters to prisoners of war I should like to emphasise the importance of addresing them to the old camp addresses. There are bound to be delays, but there is otherwise little chance of the letters reaching the prisoners at all.

Following is the list:

List of prisoner of War Camps in Germany, known to have been transferred by the German Authorities as a result of recent developments on the Eastern Front.

Camp and Last known location.

Stalag II A.—Majority of prisoners of war despatched by train to Stalag 357 Falling-hostel in the Province of Hanover.

Stalag II B.—Marching through the Province of Hanover on 10th March.

Stalag II D.—Marching through the Province of Hanover on 10th March.

Stalag Luft IV.—Distributed between:

Stalag Luft I Barth on the Baltic.

Stalag X B Sandbostel south of Bremen.

Stalag XI B Fallingbostel.

Stalag 357 Fallingbostel.

Stalag XIII D Nuremburg.

Stalag III B.—At Stalag III A Luckenwalde south of Berlin.

Stalag III C.—Near Werneuchen north-east of Berlin on 10th March.

Stalag Luft III.—Distributed between:

Marlag and Milag, Bremen.

Stalag III A Luckenwalde.

Stalag VII A Moosburg in Bavaria.

Stalag XIII C Hammelburg, Northern Bavaria.

Stalag Luft VII.—At Stalag III A Luckenwalde.

Stalag VIII A.—Sick entrained for Stalag XI B. Remainder marching east of Jena on 9th March.

Stalag VIII B.—On the march near Rakonitz in Southern Bohemia 7th March. Some sick by train to Stalag XIII B Weiden.

Stalag 344 and dependent work detachments.—Distributed between:

Stalag XI B Fallingbostel.

Stalag XIII C Hammelburg.

Stalag VII A Moosburg.

Stalag IX B Wegscheide Badorb in Thuringia.

Stalag VIII C.—On the march west of Soemmercla in Thuringia 9th March.

Stalag XX A.—On the march south-west of Danzig 10th March.

Stalag XX B.—On the march south-west of Danzig 10th March.

Oflag 64.—Transferred to Oflag XIII B, Hammelburg.

Work detachments situated to the east of Stalag IV A.—Evacuated westwards on r3th March.

Liberation (Russian Army's Advance)

Sir A. Knox: asked the Secretary of State for War how many British prisoners of war have now been liberated by the Soviet Armies; and how many, names of such men have been communicated to their relatives.

Sir J. Griģģ: The answer to the first part of the Question is still 2,661 prisoners of war from the British Commonwealth.


Of these we have received the names of 1,758 members of the United Kinģdom Forces, and the next-of-kin have been informed. Four hundred and fifteen names of members of other Commonwealth Forces have also been received.

Sir A. Knox: Is there not great delay in passing on the names of prisoners of war to relatives, who are very anxious about them?

Sir J. Griģģ: There is certainly no delay once we get them.

Captain McEwen: Is it any use us maKinģ inquiries of the right hon. Gentleman about individual prisoners of war?

Sir J. Griģģ: No, Sir; because directly the names are received they are sent to the relatives.

Oral Answers to Questions — SCOTLAND (TEMPORARY HOUSES)

Mr. Henderson Stewart: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland, if he is aware of the disappointment and dissatisfaction of Scottish local authorities on account of the recent change of policy regarding temporary houses, causing further delay in the provision of housing accommodation in Scotland; and since many of these authorities have incurred substantial expenditure in the preparation of sites for temporary houses, what steps he proposes to take to protect the authorities against claims for breach of contract and otherwise in loss of revenue.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Westwood): My right hon. Friend is not aware that the position is as stated in the first part of the Question. Only one local authority, namely Fife county council, have made representations in the sense of the second part with regard to five temporary sites to be developed in 1945. As, however, the statement made on 23rd February by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Works does not affect the temporary housing programme already intimated to local authorities for the current year, the council have been informed that there appears to be no occasion for contemplating a breach of contract such as is referred to.

Mr. Stewart: Does that mean that the Fife county council may proceed with their plan?

Mr. Westwood: Definitely that means that they may proceed with the plan of the five temporary sites, at Crosshill, Lumphinan, Thornton, Methilhill, and East Wemyss.

Mr. Gallacher: When are the houses going to be built?

Mr. Westwood: That does not arise on this Question.

Oral Answers to Questions — TIMBER (SUPPLIES FROM GERMANY)

Sir W. Davison: asked the Prime Minister whether the Government have in mind, in connection with the British share of the indemnity in kind to be imposed on Germany after her unconditional surrender, the desirability of supplying Britain over a period of years with timber, whether sawn or otherwise, large amounts of which will be required in Great Britain for housing and other purposes on the cessation of hostilities.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Churchill): Yes, Sir.

Sir W. Davison: May I ask the Prime Minister whether it will be borne in mind that timber in Germany is largely used for war purposes, and that it would be quite impossible for us to obtain from normal sources the exceptionally large amount of timber which we shall require after the war in connection with our building effort?

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — WOMEN'S LAND ARMY

The following Question stood on the Order Paper in the name of Sir PERCY HURD:

46. To ask the Prime Minister if he has considered the further representations made to him on the subject of the W.L.A.; and with what results.

Sir P. Hurd: My Question is deferred.

The Prime Minister: I could give my hon. Friend an answer—

Hon. Members: Answer.

The Prime Minister: —with your permission, Mr. Speaker, but, if the hon. Gentleman refuses to put it—

Mr. Speaker: A Question cannot be answered if it is not asked.

Hon. Members: Answer.

Sir P. Hurd: I have been requested to defer the Question.

Hon. Members: By whom?

Mr. Driberģ: Would it not be in Order for the Prime Minister to make a statement at the end of Questions, if he wishes to?

Oral Answers to Questions — SERVICE VOTERS (POLITICAL INFORMATION)

Mr. Driberģ: asked the Prime Minister what steps he is taKinģ to meet the need of men and women in all the Services, many of whom have never voted, for elementary factual political information which will enable them to judģe intelligently between the election addresses submitted to them at the General Election.

The Prime Minister: In spite of the unavoidable limitations imposed on members of H.M. Forces from time to time by distance and dispersal, and the late arrival of newspapers, they are, in general, probably at least as well informed on these matters as most other classes of the community, and I do not consider any special action by Government Departments is necessary.

Mr. Driberģ: Would the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that Members of Parliament get a great many letters from the Services asking; for elementary facts about politics, and would he suggest to the Secretary of State for War that it might be a good idea to devote an A.B.C.A. bulletin to this matter?

The Prime Minister: I think that shows that the process is going forward of inquiries being made and answers given. I do not think that it leads to the necessity of any special organisation, except, perhaps, trying to fly out newspapers in as great a degree as circumstances render possible. I do not think the hon. Gentleman should suppose that soldiers of the British Army do not keep themselves very well informed, and do not have a strong opinion on the course of events.

Sir H. Williams: Would the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of sending out to the troops reprints of his own

speeches and copies of my pamphlets? Thus they would be completely well informed.

The Prime Minister: I am not proposing to enter into so limited a partnership with the hon. Gentleman.

Mr. Austin Hopkinson: Will the troops and others be informed of the names of the seven Ministers and 12 Under-Secretaries who voted for a Vote of Censure against Mr. Baldwin for rearming, in 1936?

The Prime Minister: I have not the slightest idea who these gentlemen are, but I think it would be very invidious to put out little, spiteful, picked-out pieces of information of this kind, of a one-sided character. Indeed, I should certainly not lend my support to it.

Mr. Gallacher: Is the right hon. Gentleman awere that hon. Members get many letters from soldiers expressing elementary political facts, particularly directed against hon. Members on the other side?

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTERIAL OFFICES (DUTIES)

Mr. Shinwell: asked the Prime Minister what are the Government activities of the Lord Privy Seal and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

The Prime Minister: In addition to discharging the formal duties of 'his office, the Lord Privy Seal undertakes such other tasks as may be assigned to him, in Cabinet Committee or otherwise.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster primarily controls the management of the Duchy estates and revenues, and, within the County Palatine, performs various duties which in other counties devolve upon the Lord Chancellor and the Home Secretary. Besides these duties, he is Chairman of the European Committee of the Council of the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. In addition, he is available to perform a variety of pressing and temporary duties which are not assigned to any particular Minister such as membership of Government Committees and assistance in the work of this House.

Mr. Shinwell: Does my right hon. Friend suggest that these gentlemen are fully employed?

The Prime Minister: Certainly, I do. Indeed, it used to be pressed upon me most vigorously in the first two years of the life of the present Government that we should have a War Cabinet entirely composed of persons who had no duties at all except to brood at large over our for- tunes. We have followed, in general, the opposite principle, but there is great advantage in having one or two Ministers in an Administration who have no heavy Departmental duties, and are available for all kinds of other tasks, and these two particular offices, which have long traditions behind them, are extremely suitable for those who discharge such functions.

Mr. W. J. Brown: Could the Prime Minister inform us of the names of any Ministers who are more harmlessly employed than the two mentioned?

Mr. Shinwell: But is my right hon. Friend aware that neither of these members of the Government is in the War Cabinet, whereas in the War Cabinet there are right hon. Gentlemen engaged in Departmental duties?

The Prime Minister: I know, but it is a good arrangement, and it has not led us to a bad spot so far.

Sir P. Hannon: May I ask whether anybody can imagine the Lord Privy Seal being engaged in anything except promoting the interests of this country and the British Empire?

The Prime Minister: That certificate could be given to all His Majesty's Ministers.

Oral Answers to Questions — MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (GOVERNMENT APPOINTMENTS ABROAD)

Mr. Shinwell: asked the Prime Minister how many hon. Members he has appointed to positions abroad representing His Majesty's Government; and how many of them were members of the Labour Party.

The Prime Minister: Excluding members of His Majesty's Forces posted abroad, 17 Members of this House have been so appointed since the present Government took office. Of these, six have given up their appointments, maKinģ a total of II at the present time. One of them was, at the time of the appointment, a member of the Labour Party.

Mr. Shinwell: Does my right hon. Friend regard that as a fair proportion; and does he not agree that there are hon. Members associated with the Labour Party who have all the qualifications necessary, or at least as good qualifications as hon. Gentlemen on the other side, and who could be sent abroad?

The Prime Minister: These appointments were made without any regard to Party at all.

Oral Answers to Questions — WAR DESPATCHES

Mr. Bellenģer: asked the Prime Minister whether he will publish in HANSARD a list of the despatches received from commanders-in-chief during this war, with the dates of their receipt.

The Prime Minister: No, Sir.

Mr. Bellenģer: Would my right hon. Friend give any explanation of why he is not prepared to give this information in HANSARD?

The Prime Minister: I see no particular purpose in giving a list of these various despatches. I have studied the best of them, and, if there is any general desire for their printing, it could certainly be granted.

Earl Winterton: May I ask if my right hon. Friend can make it clear that the fact that the dates and contents of the despatches are not being published during the war, does not mean that the usual principle will be departed from that there will be full publication after the war?

The Prime Minister: That is quite true. These despatches have passed away, in many cases, from the sphere of immediate action. Nevertheless, they are an extremely important contribution to the history of the war, and it is certainly the intention of the Government to make them public, but I do not think this is the best time, when our eyes are fixed upon the extremely rapid development of military events. I think it is much better that, in some moment when there are no new facts to be recorded about the progress of our Armies, that should be the period when they should be published.

Mr. Bellenģer: Might I ask my right hon. Friend whether these despatches are for the information of the War Cabinet


or whether this House has not some interest in having them published, as was indeed done on every occasion during the last war?

The Prime Minister: The despatches are, of course, to His Majesty's Government. There might easily be things in them that would not be suitable for publication. It might give great information to the enemy. We have nothing to fear from any disclosures, I can assure the hon. Gentleman, and if it would give him satisfaction that a list of the despatches should be published, I should be quite ready to alter the sense of my answer and meet his wishes and have them published, but I think I should like to hear from him that he really does consider that it is a necessary step to take.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY (SURRENDER PROPOSALS)

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Prime Minister if he will give an assurance that the House of Commons will be informed as soon as any proposals for laying down their arms are made by the Government of the Reich, and of the nature of such proposals, and that Parliament will have an opportunity of discussing them.

The Prime Minister: No, Sir.

Mr. Davies: In view of the importance of bringing the war to an early close, does my right hon. Friend think it fair that this Parliament should not be told, if and when the Germans are proposing to lay down their arms, and the conditions under which they would be prepared to do that?

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman had better ask his questions one.at a time.

Mr. Davies: The right hon. Gentleman's mind is surely clearer than mine.

The Prime Minister: I cannot remember them all. Would the hon. Gentleman be so good as to let me know the first question?

Mr. Davies: I will, if I may, repeat the two points separately. In view of the importance of bringing the war to an early close, does my right hon. Friend think it is fair that this Parliament should not be told immediately—

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is asKinģ about a matter of opinion and not of fact.

The Prime Minister: Such matters, if they arose at any time, would, first of all, enter immediately into the province of inter-Allied discussions. We should not be in a position at all to decide any matters of that kind, except purely military surrender at the front. Anything that touched peace negotiations, and so on, we should immediately communicate to our Russian and American Allies, and the House would have to wait, necessarily, until those discussions had taken place. They all lie in the power of the Crown, which is vested in the Executive.

Mr. Evelyn Walkden: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that one soldier's life is more valuable than a day's talk in Parliament, and that we have got to stop shooting first and talk afterwards?

The Prime Minister: That is very good; I like it very much.

Mr. Woodburn: Has the right hon. Gentleman any news as to when this event is likely to happen?

The Prime Minister: The news is good.

Oral Answers to Questions — CARTELS AND MONOPOLIES

Mr. Petherick: asked the Prime Minister whether a decision has yet been reached by the Government as to setting up a court of monopolies or some similar body to examine or otherwise to deal with cartels and monopolies.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Dalton): I have been asked to reply. The form of legislation necessary to give effect to the policy contained in paragraph 54 of the White Paper on Employment Policy is now being worked out.

Mr. Petheriek: Although it is very necessary to control forms of monopoly, including that of the Executive, is it not for Parliament to deal with matters of this kind, and not a court, for which there is no precedent so far as I am aware, except that of the Star Chamber?

Sir A. Southby: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is in the public mind, not without reason, a fear that the cartel system would form, in peace, a


system of economic and financial dictatorship, just as evil as the political dictatorship aimed at by Hitler and the Axis?

Mr. Dalton: I have heard that view expressed.

Mr. Levy: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he allows the monopoly system to continue, we shall have industrial autocracy, and not private enterprise as we understand it?

Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should do something about it speedily?

Sir Geoffrey Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman introduce this legislation after Easter and before Whitsun?

Mr. Dalton: Not before Easter.

Oral Answers to Questions — DISCHARGED SERVICE PERSONNEL (RELEASE PAY)

Mr. Cocks: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer in view of the fact that officers and men who are released or honourably discharged from the Forces are to be granted 56 days' release leave on full pay, whether those who have already been honourably discharged with only 28 days' leave will have the additional 28 days' pay made up to them at the appropriate time.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury Peake): I have been asked to reply. The answer is "No, Sir." As indicated in the White Paper on the Re-allocation of Man-power between the Armed Forces and civilian employment during the interim period (Cmd. 6548), the primary object of the 56 days' release leave is to assist the resettlement of men released in their turn under the Re-allocation Scheme. The same considerations do not apply in the case of men who have already been resettled in civil life.

Mr. Cocks: In view of the fact that most of these soldiers have been discharged on medical grounds, there may be some difficulty in re-settling them even now, because it involves considerable expenditure, so will my right hon. Friend -not reconsider the matter, especially in view of the fact that men discharged now on medical grounds get the 56 days?

Mr. Peake: I was going to make the point that the hon. Member has made,

that officers and men discharged on medical grounds get the full 56 days.

Mr. Shinwell: Will the right hon. Gentleman make it quite clear that although this is a Government decision, the matter is yet to come before the House, that a Debate has been promised, and therefore that it is within the prerogative of hon. Members to induce the Government to change their mind?

Mr. Peake: By all means.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: May I ask my right hon. Friend in what way the circumstances of the men now released differ from the circumstances of men who will be released later?

Mr. Peake: The point is that after the termination of hostilities in Germany there will be a steady flow of men being released from the Forces in Class A, and it is for the special needs of those men and in order to provide them with a full opportunity of securing a suitable job that the 56 days' leave is granted.

Mr. Cocks: Was the right hon. Gentleman's statement that soldiers discharged on medical grounds get 56 days, retrospective?

Mr. Peake: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL SERVICE

Married Woman (Re-instatement)

Mrs. Cazalet Keir: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will reconsider his refusal to retain the services of a married woman, whose name has been sent to him, in a permanent capacity in the Civil Service, in view of the fact that her husband, as a result of war service, has contracted tuberculosis of the spine, thus maKinģ it essential for her to have a permanent appointment which she lost on marriage.

Mr. Peake: The rules provide that a woman civil servant who resigns her established post on marriage and is subsequently widowed, or whose husband is incapacitated, will be reinstated only if she had a fairly long period of established service, and reinstatement can be said to be in the public interest. The officer to whom my hon. Friend refers had had, at the time of her marriage, less than one year's established service, and clearly fell


outside the rules. I agree, however, that the case presents special features, and I am prepared to look at it again in consultation with the employing Department.

Annual Leave

Sir G. Mander: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will give particulars of the arrangements for holidays with pay amongst various grades of Government employees, including additional days in respect of long service covering a number of years.

Mr. Peake: The allowances of annual leave to civil servants vary with the many grades, and I am sure the hon. Member would not wish me to have an exhaustive catalogue prepared; but, broadly, the position, excluding the Post Office grades, is as follows: Permanent civil servants in the administrative and executive grades are allowed in peace-time 36 days, increasing to 48 days after 10 years' and 15 years' service respectively; and in the basic clerical grades the allowance is 24 days. Temporary civil servants in the administrative and higher executive grades are allowed 24 days; in the junior executive and clerical grades 18 days. During the war, however, the allowance of leave to all grades, permanent and temporary, has until the current leave year been restricted, by agreement with the staff, to not more than 18 days—less in some years. For the current leave year this allowance has been extended to 24 days for those normally entitled to that amount or more.

Sir G. Mander: Is the Minister aware that I did not ask about civil servants alone? Could he make a statement about the people in, for instance, the Ministry of Works?

Mr. Peake: There are no fewer than 700 different grades in Government employment, and it would require an immense catalogue to answer my hon. Friend's question, but if he is not satisfied, in any particular respect, with my answer when he has read it, perhaps he will communicate with me.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE

University Grants (Veterinary Colleģes)

Mr. Rostron Duckworth: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to what extent veterinary colleges will benefit by

the increased university grants announced by him on 13th February.

Mr. Peake: The veterinary colleges are not, in general, parts of the universities and the benefit they may derive from the increased university grants is therefore generally speaKinģ negligible. My hon. Friend will remember that the second report of the Committee on Veterinary Education in Great Britain reviews the whole question of the future of veterinary education in this country.

Treasury Deposit Receipts (Conversion)

Mr. Stokes: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer what conversions have taken place into Government securities other than into saving bonds of the £1,794,500,000 Treasury deposits receipts outstanding at 31st December, 1944.

Mr. Peake: As the answer contains a number of figures, I will, with the hon. Member's permission, circulate a statement in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Stokes: Can my right hon. Friend tell the House how much of the money referred to in the Question is new money created by the banks?

Mr. Peake: No, Sir, I cannot do that without notice.

Mr. Stokes: If I give my right hon. Friend notice, will he answer the question?

Mr. Peake: If the hon. Member will put it down.

Following is the statement:

The figure of £1,794,500,000 represents the total of Treasury Deposit Receipts outstanding on 31st December, 1944, and these had, of course, not been used to cover subscriptions to Government issues up to that date.

The table below shows the approximate totals of the loans (other than 3 per cent. Savings Bonds) to which encashments before maturity of Treasury Deposit Receipts over the period from 30th June, 1940, to 31st December, 1944, were applied:



£ millions


2½ per cent. National War Bonds
835


1¾ per cent. Exchequer Bonds
6


Tax Reserve Certificates
732


Post Office Issues
35



1,608

MEMBERS AND MINISTERS (FRANKED MAIL)

Mr. Driberģ: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury which Members of Parliament are now afforded facilities for franking mail to their constituents.

Mr. Peake: None, Sir.

Mr. Driberģ: While not suggesting that they should not have this privilege, may I ask my right hon. Friend if it is not the case that within fairly recent times it was accorded to the Whips?

Mr. Peake: Perhaps I might explain that the position of Ministers is somewhat different—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh"]—but I take it that my hon. Friend's Question applies to Members of Parliament as such.

Mr. Shinwell: Do we understand from that answer that, so far as personal postage is concerned—that is to say, postage which applies to personal matters—Ministers have their letters franked? I was never aware that that was so, but is it the case now?

Mr. Peake: No, that is not the case, but some Ministers, I understand, as a matter of practical convenience, have their constituency correspondence dealt with through their offices and, in that case, their letters are franked.

Mr. Driberģ: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it would be a matter of great practical convenience for all of us to have our letters franked?

Mr. Stokes: Is the Minister aware that some of us deplore this custom?

Mr. Shinwell: This appears to be quite a new practice. It was not the case when I was a member of His Majesty's Government, and I wonder whether, if Ministers who receive salaries can have their personal letters franked because it is convenient to join both together, hon. Members can have the same privilege?

Mr. Peake: It is quite clear that no Minister gets his personal correspondence franked at Government expense, but so far as his constituency correspondence is concerned—

Mr. Shinwell: That is what I meant.

Mr. Peake: —the position is, I think, rather different [HON. MEMBERS:

"Why?"]. In the first place, Ministers get no allowance for expenses of any sort against the Income Tax on their salaries, and also by taking office Ministers preclude themselves from other methods of supplementing their income, whether by trade, journalism, or any other profession.

Hon. Members: Oh!

Mr. Speaker: I do not think we can go any further with this matter by way of question and answer.

Mr. Shinwell: On a point of Order. As this is a matter, Sir, not of party politics, but one which affects hon. Members and the expenses they incur as a result of their ordinary responsibilities, of which not even the Prime Minister seeks to deprive us, and which brings to us a great measure of correspondence, will you, as custodian of the rights of hon. Members, take into account the extraordinary position which has now been revealed, namely, that members of the Government, who receive salaries from the State, do have their constituency correspondence franked, which is not a privilege which is accorded to ordinary private Members?

Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for me; it is a matter for the Government.

Sir H. Williams: Further to that point of Order. I submit, Sir, that this is a matter for the House of Commons. For many years Members of Parliament had their correspondence franked. Unfortunately, it was abused—

Mr. Shinwell: And stopped.

Sir H. Williams: I was for a short time a Minister, and I always paid postage on every letter in reply to a constituent, unless his letter came to me, not as the Member of Parliament but as a Minister.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is making a statement. He had better make a request for a Debate because, as I have said, this is not a matter which can be properly dealt with at Question Time.

Mr. Driberģ: In view of what you have said, Sir, and in order that there may be a Debate, I give notice that I will raise the matter on the Adjournment at the first opportunity.

DEATH OF EARL LLOYD-GEORGE OF DWYFOR, O.M.

The Prime Minister: The House will have heard with deep regret of the passing away, yesterday evening, of one of the best known and most illustrious figures in our public life—Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor. I do not think we can do any more Business to-day. I believe that that will be the feeling of the House. The precedent I would advise the House to follow is that adopted in the case of Lord Balfour and, therefore, I propose that the Leader of the House shall move the Adjournment when I sit down, and answer any questions on the alteration of Business that may arise, and that when we meet tomorrow, the tributes of the party leaders, and of Members who have personal memories, should begin our work after Questions. The Leader of the House will inform the House of the re-arrangements of Business which are necessary.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Secretary of State for Foreiģn Affairs (Mr. Eden): I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."
If the House will agree with the arrangement which my right hon. Friend has indicated, certain consequential changes will have to be made in our Business. Tomorrow, after we have completed certain formal Business, we propose that the Adjournment shall be moved and that the Debate on Supplies to Liberated Countries, which should have taken place today, shall take place to-morrow and that in order to allow for the time taken up by the tributes which will be paid to the late Earl Lloyd-George there will be an extension of one hour for that Debate. The Committee stage of the Requisitioned Land and War Works Bill, at present down for to-morrow, will be postponed.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Eighteen Minutes after Three o'Clock.